primer dies

[occifer19]

occifer19

You guys are great..honest, I'm thinkin I might make cookies, never blew up a cookie before............

Well I hope the job market turns around soon, I'm tired of sitting around

Thanks for all the good input..you guys are awsome............

Mike Hoffman

 

[WILDCATT]

primers

here are a few others with like thoughts,and ones wanting to make ammo.
# 1 the gov frowns on having EXPLOSIVES IN ANY QUANTITY.and permits and all kind of paper work,and they DO HAVE EXPLOSIONS.
no your a machinist you say,why not do what you know.make gun parts.they dont have to be exotic.there are a lot of people rebuilding old guns.some are on this site.71/84 mausers,41 swiss,88 commision rifles.
screws,bolt heads,extracters ect.
thats something you can do and no permits.
I am rebuilding 2 mausers 2 88s and a swiss 41.course I have several other projects such as converting cartridges to other forms.8 mm lebel to 41 swiss.
was making 348 to 8 mm lebel.now I can get new brass.
good luck.

 

[madmachinst]

I'm the guy that is making FAL parts, It's just not a living by a longshot. Got any hook ups on who is looking for what? Usually when I get requests for one off's the customer isn't willing to pay machinist rate. If I expected to make $60 an hour I would turn away about 94% of my customers and that would mean gross of about $600 a year. Might as well start begging Obama.

 

[Alpacca Fortyfive]

I'll echo the caution about priming compounds.

In my miss spent teens (many decades ago) we messed about with NI3. The stuff was stable when wet, but if we made more than about a grain of the stuff it would detonate as it dried. My hearing still hasn't recovered. Fortunately we didn't loose more than hearing!

I was working with a guy earlier this week whose father worked in an explosives plant.

The guy's father and many of his fathers colleagues died of massive strokes and heart attacks in their early 40's.

Apparently just one of the now recognised health effects of working with nitrates, azides etc

 

[Ould Ugly]

making the cups is one thing, what are you going to use as a primer agent? You interested in production or just personal use? Is there nay legality that you have to be some kind of special entity to make primers? Just very very very curious with the rarity of primers and all. My self personally I'd dip the old primers in acetone and clean em out and reform them to like new. Maybe need to anneal them.

Hi Guys,
Sometime ago when I lived in sunny CA I bought a book at a Gun Show, it was titled " The Poor Mans Primer
Manual" auther was a fellow called George Dmitrieff and it was published by an outfit in Arizona ( I think the city was 'El Dorado' but I'm not sure), anyway that book has every answer to all your questions. Don't supose its still available anymore the way things are these days, damm shame but thats the way the cooky's crumbled..........
Best of luck.
Ould Ugly.

 

[Dutchman#2]

You guys are great..honest, I'm thinkin I might make cookies, never blew up a cookie before............

Well I hope the job market turns around soon, I'm tired of sitting around

Thanks for all the good input..you guys are awsome............

Mike Hoffman

Bunch of experts here, huh?

I was offering this digitized version of this on another forum on a CD but I'm not offering it here. I'm showing you so you know what you want is available.
You just asked in the wrong place.


"Primers for Small Arms Cartridges"
Formulas - Suggestions - Theory
for
Handloaders and Experimenters
by M.J. Albert & H.F. Oelberg
(c) March, 1944

This is the little self-published "book" of 35sum pages I got at an auction in Indiana in a box of gun books. I'm flabbergasted at the information in this book. The manufacture of priming compounds for small arms due to shortages or restrictions from war time. As well, the manufacture of powder, both semi-smokeless and smokeless. Included are instructions for rehabbing the primer cup and anvil, annealing the primer cup if necessary. Both corrosive and non-corrosive priming compounds are covered.

For example, in chapter 1 "Primers for Igniting High Pressure Rifle Powders in Small Arms Cartridges".

1- Federal Explosives license for purchase and use must be secured.
2- Barium Nitrate, two parts
3- Lead Nitrate, one part
4- Phosphorus, one part
5- Aluminum (powdered), one part

The chapter gives instruction for measuring using an empty .22 LR case, which equals "1 part". It give instruction as to mixing on a tinned lid (syrup lid, etc). There's about 2 pages for each of the different compounds and it seems to cover everything including testing...... a little bit hit with a hammer = explodes - is good.

Wet versus dry mixing are explained. Explosive versus heat detonation is explained. Test charts using .30-06 against Frankfort Arsenal GI ammo.

The next chapter uses a different formula:
1- Potassium Chlorate
2- Sulfur
3- Lead Nitrate
4- Antimony Sulfide
Says this one is "corrosive".

There are 5 different priming compound formulas listed. One is listed as "Senior Grade Mixture" not for beginners. Also has a chapter on making muzzle loader caps from scratch including the cup.

Priming compound measurements in the primer cup are gauged as 1/2, 5/8 or 3/4 full and explains using the different amounts for igniting powders for different applications.

Apparently there was a Volume 2 of this book with instruction on making the tools, punches, dies for making primer cups, home made reloading tools, etc etc.

One of the propellant formulas for semi-smokeless powder:
Listed as "laboratory batches":

Potassium Nitrate 3 grams
Lead Nitrate 3 grams
Barium Nitrate 2 grams
Liquid Glue .250 grams
Carbon (Willow charcoal) 1.250 grams

For "smokeless, flashless under load"":

Potassium Nitrate 2.1 grams
Ammonium Nitrate 7.14 grams
Willow Charcoal 2.10 grams
Lead Nitrate 1.720 grams

It shows a chart for a Gewehr 98 8x57 Mauser fired with a No.6 formula primer, 3/4 load, and using various home made powders and black powder to Du Pont 4320 and lists the bullet impact below point-of-aim to illustrate the relative power of the load.

I've never seen such an interesting explanation of primer manufacture, or powder manufacture. I did an internet search on these two authors and there are two references. Hard to believe. I have no interest in mixing priming compound but learned a lot just from reading it. Don't know what I'm going to do with this yet. If you have or know where Vol. 2 is I'd be interested.

In the forward of the book by the authors they made quite a statement about free enterprise and freedom. I don't know what the world was like in 1944 but today they'd probably be categorized in some despicable manner like a *patriot* for what they believe. They asked that the information in the book remain within the United States. If I end up offering this CD for sale (token amount) it would be US only to repect the wishes of the authors. For those of you in Canada, Oz or New Zealand know that I have zero bias towards you. My grandfather was English-Canadian soldier in 1916 in Toronto. I don't discriminate against cousins but I have to respect the author's wishes in order to keep my karma squeaky clean <yeah.. right!>.

These couple pages attached are typical. They look a little fuzzy on my monitor but on the CD they're sharp.

The copyright for the original work is expired.
The digitized version in PDF format belongs to:

"Dutchman" (c)2009

 

[Alpacca Fortyfive]

Hi Dutchman
The book looks really good.
Watch your fingers and eyes if you are mixing either sulphur or a sulphide with a chlorate, the combination has a bad habit of going off spontanaeously. a perchlorate salt is much safer.

I had a look through some of my old files and found some pretty detailed patents for non corrosive mixes from about 10 years ago. I'll try to post them tonight.

K

 

[Alpacca Fortyfive]

I had a look through some of my old files. Here are some highlights from about 10 years ago, research into primer compositions will have advanced since then, and patents are a lot easier to search now than they were then.

The closest I get to the science side of explosives now is dealing with blasting contractors.

I still have all my fingers, both my eyes, a fraction of my hearing and, my liberty still in place, I’d like to keep it that way…

US Pat 5,466,315
Erickson et al Nov 1995 (assigned to Federal)
The “background to the Invention” section gives a very good run down of the then current state of the art, giving a long list of US Patent numbers and a brief outline of the compositions. Federal’s patent’s “unique selling point” was its non toxic composition, absence of metallic oxidizer compounds and absence of hygroscopic (moisture attracting) ingredients.

US Pat 5,538,569
Carter July 1996 (assigned to Eley)
A non toxic, non corrosive primer composition particularly suited to rimfire cartridges.
The text also refers to the “Eleyprime” compositions, which were supposedly only rendered sensitive by adding water after they were placed into the case.

US Pat 5,567,252
Mei et al October 1996 (assigned to Olin)
This one is really interesting, as it uses only a single “explosive” compound, the remainder of the composition being Boron particles, which acted both as a friction agent and provided hot particles, together with iron oxide as the oxidizing agent.

I’m not sure what state of “crisis” your authorities have whipped up in the US at present, but in Britain, buying any oxidizing agent (eg saltpeter) is likely to trigger an “anti terrorist” investigation.

Long before the Haber process for making ammonia allowed cheap industrial scale synthesis of nitric acid, and before even the nitrate rich caliche deposits were found in Chile. Saltpeter was extracted from barnyard middens and “night soil”, (adding a few rotting carcasses to the heap helped increase the yeild of nitrate). I’m just waiting for shite and dead cats to become prohibited items…

 

[Alpacca Fortyfive]

Primer Book

Hi Guys,
Sometime ago when I lived in sunny CA I bought a book at a Gun Show, it was titled " The Poor Mans Primer
Manual" auther was a fellow called George Dmitrieff and it was published by an outfit in Arizona ( I think the city was 'El Dorado' but I'm not sure), anyway that book has every answer to all your questions. Don't supose its still available anymore the way things are these days, damm shame but thats the way the cooky's crumbled..........
Best of luck.
Ould Ugly.

Seems like the book is still available. I don't know how good it is. Dmitrieff seemed to know his stuff about blow back actions, so this may be worth looking at.

Amazon.com: Poor Man's Primer Manual (9780879472368): George B. Dmitrieff: Books

 

[jabezkin]

It is not about what you are doing. It is about the surprizes.

See how many Air Bag plants had to be redecotated, due to the "propellent", that sits in front of your face.

 

[Eagle_view]

Get a book called Ammunition Making by Frost.

Well written on all phases of ammo manufacturing.

Becareful, be legal, be a long way from my location.

Lowell

 

[deltaenterprizes]

Ammunition Making is on line for no cost, good book !

 

[Dave W]

Try "Ammunition making" by George E. Frost, 1990. It has a long section on primer manufacture.

Ordinary Boxer primers are expensive but available... but Berdan primers, which are much simpler, are unobtainable at the moment. Berden primers are just a cup with priming mix, no anvil. There's a lot of Berdan brass out there that could be reloaded if primers were available.

It would be a "learning experience", but it ain't rocket surgery...

 

[donie]

I though they made the CCI primers in Idaho, about 100 miles from me.
Anyway, I noticed the local Walmart has them back in stock, Win and CCI for $3.40-100.

Primers have not been a problem here, some powders were scarce, along with some calibers of brass.

A fairly short trip over to Idaho, any components usually can be found.

 

[JDM256]

Hi Dutchman
The book looks really good.
Watch your fingers and eyes if you are mixing either sulphur or a sulphide with a chlorate, the combination has a bad habit of going off spontanaeously. a perchlorate salt is much safer.

I had a look through some of my old files and found some pretty detailed patents for non corrosive mixes from about 10 years ago. I'll try to post them tonight.

K

The problem with perchlorate for primers is what you have to use with it to make it work. That is the <= 5µ Al and the decomposition products cannot be good for the barrel. Theoretically It goes like this ;

3KClO4 + * Al --> 3KCl + 4AlO3

But in reality the reaction is messy, with small amounts of other corrosive materials also formed via carbon from the blackened Al.

A better(?) but more toxic approach is to use blackened Sb2S3.
Also I thought I read last year that lead styphnate (Pb-2,4,6-trinitroresorcinate) was recently reclassified.

Can't speak for other places, but in my state, if you want to sell your primers you need the FFL Type 3(reloader) FFL plus a pyrotechnic license.

While I am not a machinist, I did at one time do a programming gig on CNC code interpreters. Which means that for certain inputs the code set I/O ports per a set of translated specifications from Mazak.
Hobby-wise I do pyrotechnics and of course I'm a re-loader and troubled by the current primer shortage.

I believe that our current congress and executive branch would like for the ammo shortage to continue. IOW expect no help from them.

 

[neilho]

Have a look at this thread. Dutchman's present post bearing a remarkable resemblance to it.

 

[john.k]

if you want to look at Castboolits,there was a few years ago a long running discussion of making priming compounds,in particular from one expert ,who IMHO ,worked for a company lab,exploring the various possible permutations of the "Eley Mixes*",the more important part of the discussion relating to substitution of compounds on the "list" with compounds not currently restricted .......However ,you should note the "list "grows exponentially with time ,and may eventually include every compound that ever existed .....using taxpayer money has a way of breeding excess.....(*Eley Mixes---ref US Pat #5538569)

 

[sealark37]

I was talking to a man who sells hotdogs at various weekend venues. He told me that he will go to any potential site for his business, but he will not return if he does not sell $200 worth in an afternoon. He meets some nice people, and collects/pays no tax of any kind, except on his supplies.

 

[MetalCarnage]

I came across a "how to" on making primers. Maybe this will help?

http://www.arcaneiron.com/firearms/homemadeprimercourse.pdf

-Ron

 

[GGaskill]

Interesting but complicated.