roll pattern dies

[bolo]

I started buying roll pattern dies from the turn of the century clear through the 1930s, maybe longer. I've been told many are hand cut. They run anywhere from 3" OD to 1"OD. Different presses are used to press the patterns into bracelets/ decor etc. I got the itch to start making some of my own dies (patterns) but I have questions. As expected hand engraving the detail into steel is challenging and I don't have the skillset for it. I have done some digging into using a pantograph - gorton or deckel - Assuming a 3d machine but not sure - I know the roll attachment for a gorton is rare - the deckels seem to be a bit more available. Is this direction a good one to pursure to engrave the dies I want to make ? Carving into a softer material to create a pattern and then have the pantograph engrave it onto the round die. Thickness of the die is anywhere from 2" to 1/4" depending on the pattern.Any insight - thanks.

 

[Ries]

I have a Hebo machine, which is a german ornamental iron machine, which can roll patterns like these, cold, into steel bars and rounds.
I had a friend, the late great Grant Sarver, who besides making and selling 30,000 pairs of blacksmithing tongs, reimagined the hot stamping open die world with his line of hot tooling for blacksmiths.
So, naturally, I asked Grant if he could make rolls like this for my Hebo.
he said his crummy old Haas V2, with its rotary table, was perfectly capable of making this type of tooling.
It would be a bit cruder than these, but do-able.
But then Grant went and died, and we never did it.
Grants process, however, was to mill graphite with the haas, then use an edm to burn the patterns into a tool steel master. This could be adapted to these round dies as well.
Who you need to pick the brain of is Kevin Potter, who posts here. He has the worlds largest collection of jewelry dies, including a fair amount of these, and can and does make new dies by hand.

Potter USA - Fine Tools. Cranston Fancy Wire Co.

www.potterusa.com

I also happen to own a Gorton. Mine is just a 2d, but with the addition of a power rotary table, and a bit of fooling around with the rotation speed, it should be possible to engrave this sort of thing on a roll with the Gorton.

 

[snowman]

Are you using the dies, or just collecting?

 

[TGTool]

If you get into designing the pattern you want with computer graphics, an NC machine with a rotary table takes care of it. Software translates X axis to A axis with the appropriate calculation for circumference. I've seen the setup for sharpening (and I presume making) the rotary cutting dies.

 

[bolo]

Thank you all

 

[boslab]

A 2 d panto like a Taylor or gore ton works fine, getting the pattern to register is a bit trickey but not impossible,
They don’t need a massive depth for jewellery.
Mark

 

[kpotter]

Thank you all

We make these kind of dies there are several ways of doing it. The easiest way is to engrave small roll and drive it into a larger roll just like you are knurling. The next way is to engrave a tool steel plate then roll hob it into the roll. Third is to cnc on a 4th axis. There are other methods we have done that involve acid etching. We have approximately 30 thousand rolls in our collection. Are you looking for anything in particular.

 

[kpotter]

These are high relief rolls. We got these out of france.

 

[bolo]

Those are great. Thanks for the ideas I am leaning towards trying a P1-2

 

[kpotter]

They didn't make them how you think. Most were roll hobbed. You are over thinking it. What are you looking for design wise there is a good chance we have it. We have all the rolls from the Cranston fancy wire company, frank morrow, precious wire. Millard, as well as many other companies we have around 30 thousand rolls and all the master rolls to duplicate them.

 

[kpotter]

They didn't make them how you think. Most were roll hobbed. You are over thinking it. What are you looking for design wise there is a good chance we have it. We have all the rolls from the Cranston fancy wire company, frank morrow, precious wire. Millard, as well as many other companies we have around 30 thousand rolls and all the master rolls to duplicate them.

 

[kpotter]

 

[kpotter]

 

[kpotter]

 

[kpotter]

The flat bar was cut by hand and driven into a block of steel to make a female die. The small roll was roll hobbed in a rolling mill against the female die. The pattern is now in a male form on a small round die. The small round die is put in a rolling mill or in a lathe and used like a knurled to impress the pattern into the large roll.

 

[kpotter]

 

[bolo]

Thank you Kevin - wrapping my head around the process. Is the model/ pattern similar to a pattern sheet you send through a rolling mill to press a design into material? Save to assume you engrave your art on a sheet, harden it, and begin the process you described ? right?

 

[kpotter]

Very similar. I modified a rolling mill to do the knurling process.

 

[kpotter]

Very similar. I modified a rolling mill to do the knurling process.

 

[bolo]

No joke. You are brilliant.