Off Topic?......you decide

I put in this comment earlier, in response to a topic which was determined to be unacceptable, so the 'thread' was 'locked'.

I've removed the first couple of paragraphs from my earlier comment, with related to the 'unacceptable' item.

Over the years, I've read a lot of comments here, expressing bitter frustration about the 'de-industrialisation of America', the loss of entire industries here, the loss of employment opportunities for young people......and often from a feeling of total helplessness and disempowerment......to continue where I left off earlier....

I will say this, tho.......there are many thousands of Americans who are continuing to experience bitter, festering anger, as they have seen one American industry after another shut down in favour of chicom industries, and those of other 'cheap labour' countries.

I would not be at all surprised if there were quite a few of the members here who might identify with this level of anger, and for the reason I mention.

Now, maybe this properly belongs on a 'political' page, but I'm going to be a 'flag waver' for a moment.

There are some of you who have jobs in which the eight-hour day is a normalcy, workplace safety issues are taken seriously, and you can expect medical treatment should you be injured on the job.

Now, contrast your situation with that of many industrial workers of a century or more ago, in which the 12-hour day was a normalcy (but you got a half-day off on Saturday, if your employer wanted to be nice to you), industrial safety issues were simply not a factor, and, should you be injured or killed on the job, well, that wasn't the employer's problem, he simply replaced you with another worker.

There is a very long and complex story about how we, as a nation, got from there to here.......one of the factors, and an important one, was the willingness of thousands of people to walk picket lines.

None of us 'little people' can talk to the politicians and corporate executives who have made the decisions leading to the situation we now have.

There is something we can do, if we can develop the 'guts' and are willing to invest the time......and that is to walk picket lines in front of the large stores who sell chicom and other 'cheap labour' merchandise.

It would be a fairly simple project to make up and hand out 'informational brochures', explaining that tho we appear to save money in purchasing chicom products, we actually lose much more money, as a nation, when the actual costs of unemployment, under-employment, welfare, and crime are figured, on the larger scale.

Try a 'google' search on the term 'pinta bound' to see the way the criminal gang operations recruit young men who do not have industrial employment readily available to them.

With a bit more internet searching, you can find some statistics which are literally staggering......the sheer numbers of young men who are serving prison terms in this country.......and the programmes which are being vigourously promoted to induce corporations to locate manufacturing plants within prisons, to use cheap prisoner labour.

Does a trend.....an horrific trend.....seem to emerge from some of those figures?

Now, walking a picket line is not easy.....it sure wasn't easy for those who got you the eight-hour day, industrial safety regulations, and workman's comp., years ago.....

Can you face up to your responsibility to do the same for future generations which those brave men and women did for you?

Some of us need to be 'seed crystals', and talk the idea up in our areas.....instead of resentment and bitterness, we really need constructive action, even if it seems totally hopeless at the moment......

Remember the 'racial discrimination' issue of fifty-ish years ago, compared to the realities of today?........well, now we have 'industrial discrimination', and a similar challenge......put simply, we need to publicise the discrimination issue, get Americans to patronise the work of their fellow Americans, for the obvious reasons......

The 'eight hour day', and 'racial equality' were long, bitter struggles......but we know what happened in the end.

'Industrial discrimination' may well be a longer and more bitter struggle......but can we afford not to face that struggle, and each of us 'do our bit'?

(actually, picture this.....and this is realistically 'do-able', with a little 'guts' and effort.....there are plenty of young 'computer people' who could write up, add photos, and 'desktop publish' a few thousand informational pamphlets really cheaply......which, when handed out near 'whale-mart' or whatever it is (never been there, myself), are meant to make a potential purchaser of 'whatever' feel guilty, rotten, and un-patriotic....as they should.....for purchasing goods from 'cheap labour countries.

A pamphlet with a few 'scare' photos of welfare ghettoes and criminal gangs, showing the very real price of the foreign cheap labour goods, and a punch line about.....'tell the store manager that we'll wait til you have American made goods before we buy' just might get the attention of quite a few 'just ordinary folks' who really 'mean well' but hadn't thought too much about the subject.

Now, I'd suspect that a relatively few instances of someone cruising back and forth just outside the 'whale-mart' car park, with a sign on their vehicle 'ask me about (pick your phrase.....ask me about crime and welfare, or ask me about why this area is going broke, or, ask me about....well, any of the serious ills associated with the lack of industrial jobs for younger people) and passing out pamphlets, would get local publicity......and if enough people did it, it would get some serious publicity......

Now, there is one real advantage to doing something like this today, compared to the men and women who picketed for the eight-hour-day back a century ago......now, with video cameras every where, no one is about to send out a goon squad with pick handles to batter or kill you.....

Y'know, it would be really easy to 'pooh-pooh' this sort of idea.......say that its useless, the fix is in, it wouldn't do any good, whatever.....and, lets face it, there could be something to that......but.....agitating for better working conditions is a very real old American tradition......and what I'm proposing would cost almost nothing to try.......except for growing some 'guts' and being willing to invest some time and energy.

cheers

Carla

Carla,

With all due respect, I would say this belongs in the Manufacturing in America and Europe section. A very emotive subject and one which you obviously feel very strongly about to have written such a from the heart missive.

Al

Never Forget Classes Struggle?-Chaimao Mao
Less costs higher profits, capitalists without borders, Marx said it long time ago, so maybe CCP
understand this principle the best, again no secrets from We Chinees.

Per my experience, alleged "revolution" only
works maybe 20 years, thats human history, everywhere money-driven except those UN-developped countries.
Wow, are there any places like that, Yes, Afghanistan, Iraq, maybe later Iran and DPRK!
DPRK also has large labor pool and people there are sapiential..., CEOs say: Why Pay More?!

Wait and see DPRK's forms of opening up, they are ready. Now they have state-owned casions at the border of China, Sit tight!


Chicom Business Partner

Artificer,

You make a fair point.....

Actually, I put it out here intentionally, as there are many members here who don't often read the section you mention.

I've been, frankly, appalled at the level of anger expressed by some members here.....but its not at all difficult to understand why that level of anger may exist, when you contrast the industrial America of today with that of, say, 30-ish years ago.

Y'know, If some number of these members here who have expressed disempowerment and anger here, over the years, were to organise to work on an informational and publicity campaign to educate the American public, we might.....just might....see some worthwhile results over the next few years time.....a few plants being able to stay in production, and few new apprentices hired....maybe more than just a few....??

Right, that's all 'if' and 'maybe'.....but getting out and giving it a try is better than just sitting on your backside in the pub, crying in your beer, and saying 'its hopeless mate'.

Mr Chinese Person: I shall refrain from commenting on your material.

cheers

Carla

Repeated Labor Creates Value.
"Creative Labor" Creates Surplus Value.

So CEO go outsourcing or go offshore for mass production.

Carla, IMO things haven't become bad enough yet. As long as most Americans can go to bed at night with a full belly and drive there SUV to Walmart every day nothing is going to happen.

Were going to have to go through something like the great depression befor you will see such activism.

Also most people have to much going on besides there work to do such things.

In my case though i don't have that good of an excuse Im out of work and probably would have a job right now if it was not for outsourcing.But im not the type to take the lead on something like this i have never picketed in my life and frankly the thought of it gives me the willies

If enough people in this area should start some kind of grass roots organization i could be drawn in and contribute what i can.

Im rooting for you to spark something good luck.

James

James,

Let me clarify a bit, if I may.......I'm emphatically not suggesting anything near the sort of confrontation that we can read about in the industrial history of America.

Rather, I'm suggesting an 'educational' campaign....call it 'propaganda' if you will....pamphlets and serious, courteous, friendly, outreach and discussion with the public, not grim confrontations on the picket line.

I perfectly well understand that you are insecure about addressing your issue with unemployment due to out-sourcing......all of us are insecure, in one way or another.....and its not easy to find ways to deal with painful issues.

I certainly would never suggest that you go out on a picket line......but are you willing to work on starting a small discussion group with your friends, former co-workers or fellow unemployed people, maybe within a church or fraternal group?

If nothing else, maybe some social outreach will help you find a job which will get you by for now....being out of work is no joke.....

Believe me, we must.....and thats 'must'...never get into another situation like the 'great depression' of the '30's.....if that were to happen today, the differences would be so horrible as to.....well, lets not go there.....

cheers

Carla

You make a fair point.....

Actually, I put it out here intentionally, as there are many members here who don't often read the section you mention

Click to expand...

The problem with that idea is that is true of nearly every post in the Manufacturing Forum, such that if everyone acted on that thought, there wouldn't be a Manufacturing Forum in the first place. Also, how do you know who isn't reading that section...have you polled them ? Anyway, I have to move it regardless.

(and for the gazillionith time here, my plea to always use topic titles that gives some hint of what is contained within "off topic,you decide" is meaningless in that regard)

Boy, Don runs a tight ship! I was just getting ready to reply in General that this should be in Manufacturing and POOF! Don moved it!!

My reply is that:

1 - The OT guidelines specifically request that postings attempt to solve a problem that can be solved.

2 - The Manufacturing forum is for rants about unsolvable problems. Don keeps it this way for what I am certain would be the overwhelming preference of the members.


Carla - You want to know why there is a problem? Because you said

"It would be a fairly simple project to make up and hand out 'informational brochures',......"

instead of:

"I made up and handed out 'informational brochures' last week in front of Walmart....."

Just like the Walmart shoppers (I assume, like me, you refuse to shop there yourself) who look at the two goods, one American - one Chinese, then look at the price tags and put the Chinese one in the cart, then go home to bitch about losing jobs, you don't want to put in the money or effort to make a difference but expect others to do so.

A few months back I needed tires for my horse trailer. Tire stores would only put on trailer tires (ST code) even though it was on passenger tires for 10 years. Turns out all the trailer tires are made in China. I spent several hours on the phone and Internet to find a place that would put on light truck tires as I refused to buy crap Chinese tires. Got a chuckle when the latest recall was announced.

Actions makes a difference, not ideas.

Steve.

Unions. The guys who brought you teh weekened,
eh?

Nobody alive today, except history buffs, recalls
what it was like. Homestead, Pullman.

Carla I fear your approach would not work, for
the simple reason that the *biggest* attack on
the existing corporate system is in fact, informing
the citizens about what is happening. They (the
corporations) simply could not tolerate that level
of attack - a person simply wearing a sign outside
of walmart, explaining what's going it. Those
malls are private property, right? Or at least
the owners would insist that. And they would
shut a person down in a heartbeat if such an
informational picket were to happen.

Stun gun? Taser? Billy club? Probably wielded
by a rent-a-cop, but even odds that your own
local police force would be happy to put you on
the ground, protecting walmarts right to sell
cheap plastic crap.

The first amendment isn't what it used to be.

You could take a full page ad out in the NY times
about this issue, and even though it is the
*highest* form of constitutionally protected
speech (namely, political) you would STILL have
folks crying and blubbering about it, and passing
censure in the government.

In short I suggest that your are 100% correct,
but that we as a country may well have gone too
far already to rectify matters. I'm sorry.

You know things are tipped over the edge when
you see laws that allow debt to be passed down
between generations. Cheap plastic crap paid
for by the next generation.

Jim

I don't know what you guy want to do, practically maybe
Better Learn from S. Korean? They drive their cars, wear their own suits and have their traditional food,watch their TV showing their programes, even their own tabaccos(don't want to make comments about their cigarettes), when crisis comes, people donate their gold to their government. How big population do they have? The nation was pressed for so many years so that they want prove something.

Just speak about buy our own made,It won't work either in China or America, I know that. Where is George? Folks in China at home speaking in the same way, sounds like something what I keep telling my son, does he really care? Oh my father is calling me...

But. Next generation will be Okay, ought to be even better Generally.

I Work For Myself

Unions. The guys who brought you teh weekened, eh?

Click to expand...

When the labor unions began most Americans were still farmers. Farmers worked six days a week and took the "sabbath" off. People in industry were accustomed to working Saturdays and working long hours because on the farm they worked from sunrise to sunset.

I think the electric light bulb, high efficiency at work and other conveniences gave us the weekend. It wasn't necessary to keep us on the job so long to get the goods out.

Today Unions bring us socialist politicians, strife in the workplace, entitlements, set asides and other sources of intense resentment.

The "true believers" here don't get it. This ain't the 1950s any more.

The rest of the world ain't a bunch of farmers and war refugees rebuilding their economies. Today, in 2007, many of our competitors are smart, tough and expect a better tomorrow. They're optimistic and competitive.

Kids today want it and they want it now. They understand that the "Troublemaker's Guide" is not the way you get the job done at work. They want to be the boss, not be a content peon.

Gene

Better Learn from S. Korean?

Click to expand...

Some people in the US, Chinahand, can't even learn from Koreans who live amongst them.

Koreans come over here with no money and no English. They go to their local Korean "circle", get some money, start a business, and pay the money back with hard work. They learn English, they often go to a Christian Church and they try to get along with their neighbors.

At home the kids sit around the supper table and teach each other school lessons after supper. The family expects everyone to work hard.

Meanwhile, Chinahand, millions of Americans grow up with no father, no males around to show them how to live. Kids need a mother and they need a father. These kids get money from the government to eat, a place to live and medical care so their mother doesn't bother with the father.

These kids go to schools where they don't learn much, calling learning school work "acting white". The teachers don't get paid for making sure that these kids learn anything either. They teach them to feel good about themselves - violent gang members often have very high "self esteem", in part because of these stupid teachers.

You should get self esteem from doing well at something and feeling involved in doing something. You should lose yourself in your work and become a better person through work. Work is what makes us more than ourselves.

These kids grow up and expect things to be given to them because they are special. They cry about something that happened to some of their ancestors hundreds of years ago. Most of us are disgusted with this non-sense. My ancestors were slaves of the English, who starved some of us to death. I don't take it personal, the survivors came to America. Here I am.

These kids should be angry at people who take their chance to grow great from hard work. The money they get from the government is a heavier burden than a slave's chains.

Korean people come to America with no money and who can't speak English. They often thrive here.

During the riots in Los Angeles the Koreans bought guns and shot people who going to loot their stores. Many of us supported the Koreans and gave them great respect for defending themselves. We respect their hard work and their willingness to "eat bitter".

Gene

Well said, Gene.

well chinahand the ball's in your court or are you one of the "chamelon" orientials who will now become "Korean".

Carla;
you cant get a handful of people to agree where to go for dinner much less show up at wal-mart with sandwich boards...jim

You would have to counter the materialistic religion that the USA believes in so strongly. Shopping is an addiction. The advertisers have put into our minds that we must have their product or our teeth will fall out, the girls/guys won't like us, we won't be invited to parties and the dog will bite us. Having their products will make us sexy, fashionable, smart and happy. We have filled our lives, and abodes, with junk. People want more. And they couldn't afford it all if it wasn't cheaply made. They would have to do without some things, which would be considered some sort of curse.

ADM, as I get older and older I begin to realize,
that having the most toys isn't the real figure
of merit. The real figure of merit is, having
a nice big place to keep the toys you *do* have!

Jim

Im rooting for you to spark something good luck.

Click to expand...

Just curious how many people have taken the time to write your elected Legislators, Federal or State, and share your concerns?

Or, attended a public meeting with your Senator or Representative and asked a question?

Or, written your State Governor about an issue?

If you don't, that Corporate lobbyist is all they hear.

I don't believe that one letter moves mountains but sometimes maybe a small hill. Someone is reading them when you receive a response that deals with every point in yours. And, if your friends got busy, a mailbag full is pretty loud.

Heck, if you get a form letter back, don't give up. Write the next letter one office higher or tell them their response wasn't good enough. I have been sucessful with this but sometimes you do need a private meeting on their schedule.

Well Carla started a good thread and we have expressed these concerns for some time. On the overall the Chinese will win the war through economic attrition. Jobs leaving our shores are nothing new. The selling of America has been happening in earnest since NAFTA came into being. Good grief we used to think that anything from Japan was junk. Now we clamor all over each other to buy the latest Lexus etc. At least the Japanese had the guts to build factories in the US. Unions aren’t the answer either so I’m not sure what the real relevance of that is. If the Unions were all so powerful we would be having this discussion. Unions have become a bloated load on primarily the Auto Industry which has so many problems right now that they don’t know whether to crap or go blind. Overpriced CEO’s haven’t the vaguest idea of how to get their industry back on track. I think that it amusing that the Unions will have to fund the Medical care for their members. We will see if the Unions are Heroes or Goats, corruption and other calamities will befall the funds for the workers and there won’t be anymore bailouts.

Not only are we selling out the Industrial productivity of the US to mainly the Chicoms, we are allowing foreign companies to buy US companies at an alarming rate. I guess that’s the better idea from overpriced CEO’s.

Have you ever wondered what the real reason is for the forced reduction in females in China?

America is off the tracks and we are headed for the cliff. I guess we can just bend over backwards and help them out or re-instill some Patriotic Pride.

Around here farmers buy Goodyear / Titan tires because they are made in America. They work long hard hours to feed the other nations (maybe that should come to an end). Chinese want to do something – let them feed the world – oh no bad thought. They can’t even make dog food; baby cribs, or paint toy trains right. Why on this green earth would I think that they could throttle down and work the ground like the most productive farmers on earth can. I have friends that work 10’s of thousands of acres of land, where a pass across the field pulling a 60’ implement takes a half-hour. They work 35 acres an hour, every darn day to feed the world.
I don’t have to preach to the choir, many on these forum work way more than 8 hours a day and quite often weekends as well because they are the survivors of the once great Industrial Nation we call America. They do more because they have automation, not because they have deep resources of talented people to choose from. It used to be that being a Machinist was a time honored occupation to be proud of. Now a day kids don’t want to get dirty, don’t they know we have CNC machines and we even have change rooms to change into and out of work clothes? Too hard, they want to flip burgers and aspire to be a McDonalds manager.

We have let ourselves get screwed by Politicians that gave away the store and we blindly idolize them. The sheeple of America. Well a lot of us may be around when the big confrontation occurs or we take back what is left. Maybe it will turn out like Chrysler – Daimler buys Chrysler screws it up real good and dumps back for what 5 cents on the dollar. Like that was real smart. We need to get the foreign content out of our cars and put America back to work.

But those of us in the metal working industry know that. We are too few and not loud enough. We need to be loud like the major Religions are in Tennessee. Going into every little town you see signs like” Don’t turn and burn in Hell – come to service at the First Pentecostal Church on Main Street service at 8:00” or “Jesus saves Milan Tennessee – come worship with us”.

That’s it our saying should be “Don’t Turn and Burn in Hell – Buy American”

Amen

"write your elected Legislators..."

ALL the TIME!

Amazing what they send back.

Jim: I want to complain about your stance
on XYZ.

Rep or Senator: Thank you for supporting my
position on XYZ.

This is what finally cheesed us off enough about
our local rep (sue kelly) and caused us to
campaign for john hall. Who defeated her
last election.

Write. See what they write back. Participate
in government, it's fun.

Jim