Choosing VFD For Deckel FP2

[AlfaGTA]

Might want to have a look at this data sheet....



https://cloudfront.zoro.com/img/zoro_tips/V-Belt_Selection_eZtip.pdf


[url]http://www.mibelting.com/v-belts.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI5N-Tg6SR4gIVh-NkCh0cbQOFEAAYASAAEgLcgPD_BwE









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[ballen]

Hi Ross,

That's very useful information.

Based on those data sheets I need to retract what I wrote a couple of posts ago. All three of the 1/2" wide US-standard belts are 5/16" = 8mm or 11/32" = 8.7mm high, whereas the metric SPA belt is 10mm high. I'm not so concerned about 13 versus 12.7mm for the width. If the height difference was not a concern, then the AX belt would be the best match because it has a 38 degree flank angle, same as the metric SPA belt.

Given that you've got European machines and cars all around you, what's your experience here? Given that you like to do things as well as humanly possible, I would expect that you generally get what the manufacturer stated, provided that it's available somewhere in the world.

Cheers,
Bruce

 

[Degull]

The height was noticeably different when comparing the original to the belt they had in stock. I am sure it would work but I’m not in a hurry to get the machine running. I ordered a Jason SPA1132 online.

 

[Degull]

The Weg motor I ordered from the Netherlands arrived in 3 days! I'm picking the VFD on the weekend and the V Belts are in transit.
The motor looks like a match. I fit it to the motor plate adapter that attaches to the back of the mill. Everything looks like it will fit perfectly. The bolt that holds the V belt pulley is a M10 instead of the M8 bolt installed on the original Siemens motor. Other than that small difference, it should work. I'll know for sure once the VFD and V belts arrive.

 

[Degull]

In the mean time I modified the legs on my engine hoist. I got the idea from another forum member, DennisCA. The 2ton crane has proved to essential and so far my only gripe with it is that the FP2 won’t fit in between the legs. I made new base with a wider stance.

 

[ballen]

3 days to get the motor is amazing. How was it sent? If you have time, please post a photo of the motor on the mounting plate.

I made new base with a wider stance.

That looks great. Do you have a local place that does powder-paint coating? Around here there is a place I can bring things like that, and for 40 or 50 Euros they will sandblast it and powder coat it. (The price is lower if I pick a color that they are already using for another job.)

 

[Degull]

The motor arrived by UPS. I had to pay an additional $40 in taxes/duties. It was package poorly and the box was destroyed. I don’t think the motor was damaged, we will find out once I get it running.

 

[Degull]

There are many powder coaters a short drive away. I have can of metal paint (tremclad) that is up the job.

 

[ballen]

Motor looks like a perfect fit, the color is the only thing that doesn't match. As I would have expected it came wired Y/star for 380V, so you will need to shift the jumpers for 230V delta.

After you get the VFD, I'm sure you'll have it up and running very soon.

My experience with similar 3-phase motors is that you can run them from 20% to 150% of their rated frequency, provided that they are not heavily loaded. So I would start with a frequency range from (say) 10 Hz to 70 Hz.

PS: I just looked online. WEG provides "VFD Operation Curves" for their motors. So if you write to their technical support and provide the full model number, they can probably send you a VFD operation curve, which you can use to program the VFD in an optimal way.

 

[Degull]

Motor looks like a perfect fit, the color is the only thing that doesn't match. As I would have expected it came wired Y/star for 380V, so you will need to shift the jumpers for 230V delta.

After you get the VFD, I'm sure you'll have it up and running very soon.

My experience with similar 3-phase motors is that you can run them from 20% to 150% of their rated frequency, provided that they are not heavily loaded. So I would start with a frequency range from (say) 10 Hz to 70 Hz.

PS: I just looked online. WEG provides "VFD Operation Curves" for their motors. So if you write to their technical support and provide the full model number, they can probably send you a VFD operation curve, which you can use to program the VFD in an optimal way.

I’m not sure how to use the VFD operational curve but I like that I can get one! Thanks for that! I’ll send Weg an email with a request for my motor’s VFD operational curve. The VFD and the belts should be here by the weekend. The VFD is on the slow boat, I shipped it to a friends place just over the US /Canada border. I plan to pick it up this weekend.

I managed to use the engine hoist today. Lifting the FP2 with a wider stance engine hoist is a lot less stressful. I am going to leave the mill on a pallet I made out of left over oak hardwood flooring.

 

[ballen]

The VFD is on the slow boat, I shipped it to a friends place just over the US /Canada border. I plan to pick it up this weekend.

Did you get the machine running?

 

[Degull]

I installed the new motor and belts this afternoon. Everything went together nicely. The smurf blue motor color is starting to grow on me.
The VFD is going live in an enclosure so I'm trying to sort out the wiring first. I hooked up power to the VFD and ran the mill without any issues. All the speeds and feeds were test, everything worked.
Not sure how I am going to integrate the original FP2 control switches with the VFD. The FP2's on and off switches are momentary switches. The on switch is normally open and the off switch is normally closed. Much reading to do.

 

[ballen]

I hooked up power to the VFD and ran the mill without any issues. All the speeds and feeds were tested, everything worked.

That's good to hear, I am glad it all worked.

Not sure how I am going to integrate the original FP2 control switches with the VFD. The FP2's on and off switches are momentary switches. The on switch is normally open and the off switch is normally closed. Much reading to do.

I just had a quick look at my FM-50 manual. I don't see a way to program the FM-50 to work with your existing push switches, unless you add a small 12-volt reed relay to it. You should also add a back-biased flyback diode to protect against voltage spikes from the relay coil. The relay is a $5 part and the diode is a $0.05 part.

If you don't know how to do this, let me know and I'll draw you a circuit diagram. You'll want the parameter F_03 set to 1.

 

[Degull]

I just had a quick look at my FM-50 manual. I don't see a way to program the FM-50 to work with your existing push switches, unless you add a small 12-volt reed relay to it. You should also add a back-biased flyback diode to protect against voltage spikes from the relay coil. The relay is a $5 part and the diode is a $0.05 part.

If you don't know how to do this, let me know and I'll draw you a circuit diagram. You'll want the parameter F_03 set to 1.

I would appreciate that, not sure how I am going to to make it work with the momentary switches on FP2?

 

[ballen]

I would appreciate that, not sure how I am going to to make it work with the momentary switches on FP2.

I drew up a circuit with an external 12V relay, then realised that the FM-50 incorporates a multi-function output that can be used for this. So no extra parts are needed. Here you are:

The way this works is as follows:

Pins 8/9/10 are the speed-control potentionmeter, very standard

Setting parameter F_03=1 makes pin 3 be on/off and pin 4 be forward/reverse

Pushing the on button connects pin 5 (12V) to pin 3, turning on the VFD. This also closes the multi-function output, which internally connects pin 1 and pin 2. It's important to set parameter F_21=1 so that the multi-function output works this way.

Once the multi-function output has closed, it also connects pin 3 and pin 5, but via the (normally-closed) off switch. So the VFD will continue to run, even after you take your finger away from the on button.

When you push the off button, this disconnects pin 3 and pin 5, which shuts off the VFD. That opens the multi-function output, so that pin 1 and pin 2 are no longer connected internally. This way, when you take your finger away from the off button, the VFD will stay off.

 

[Degull]

I drew up a circuit with an external 12V relay, then realised that the FM-50 incorporates a multi-function output that can be used for this. So no extra parts are needed. Here you are:

When you push the off button, this disconnects pin 3 and pin 5, which shuts off the VFD. That opens the multi-function output, so that pin 1 and pin 2 are no longer connected internally. This way, when you take your finger away from the off button, the VFD will stay off.

Bruce you are a wizard, it works! F_10 has to be set to 1 for terminal control (it is set to F_10=0 keyboard by default). I haven't had the courage to try reverse yet. There is one problem. In order to stop the mill, the stop button has to be held until the frequency drops down below approx 1.5 HZ. If I let go of the stop button before the frequency drops off, the mill speeds up again and continues running. I'll have a read through the manual to see if that can be changed in the settings.

Thanks so much for taking the time to explain that to me!!

 

[ballen]

There is one problem. In order to stop the mill, the stop button has to be held until the frequency drops down below approx 1.5 HZ. If I let go of the stop button before the frequency drops off, the mill speeds up again and continues running.

I see.

One solution might be setting F_14=1. This means that the machine will coast to a stop rather than use VFD braking.

Another approach would be to set F_21=2. But then you will need to hold down the start button until the VFD has reached its final frequency or it will shut down. This may in fact be a good safety measure, because it means that if something goes wrong in the first instants after starting you can "cancel" the start by taking your finger off the start button.

Otherwise you may have to add an "external" diode and 12V relay to the setup. I still have the schematic that I drew for this, so please let me know if I should post it.

PS: how do you have F_7 (low frequency limit) set? I would not go lower than (say) 10Hz.

 

[Degull]

I see.

One solution might be setting F_14=1. This means that the machine will coast to a stop rather than use VFD braking.

Another approach would be to set F_21=2. But then you will need to hold down the start button until the VFD has reached its final frequency or it will shut down. This may in fact be a good safety measure, because it means that if something goes wrong in the first instants after starting you can "cancel" the start by taking your finger off the start button.

Otherwise you may have to add an "external" diode and 12V relay to the setup. I still have the schematic that I drew for this, so please let me know if I should post it.

PS: how do you have F_7 (low frequency limit) set? I would not go lower than (say) 10Hz.

Setting F_14=1 worked great, the spindle comes to a stop in less than 2 secs. It works almost too well. I was going to add a braking resistor but I don't see the point if it stops so quickly on its own. I'll play with the DC Braking settings so it doesn't stop so quickly. I'm worried that the quick stops might damage something.

I might leave F_21=2. I really like the added safety feature. There has been many instances where I shut the machine in a hurry right after powering on. I will leave this feature enabled and use the machine to see if like it.

F_7 was 0 hz, the default setting.

I'm wondering if I should bother with the potentiometer to control the frequency? The speeds native to the machine are more than I have ever used. When would I use this feature?

The external relay/diode setup schematic that you made might help someone else looking to do something similar. I might even use that setup if I run into control issues in the future. Please post it!

I can't say thank you enough. You have saved me hours of head scratching!

 

[ballen]

I was going to add a braking resistor but I don't see the point if it stops so quickly on its own. I'll play with the DC Braking settings so it doesn't stop so quickly. I'm worried that the quick stops might damage something.

I would leave it like that. IMO shutting down in a couple of seconds won't do any damage whatsoever.

I might leave F_21=2. I really like the added safety feature.I will leave this feature enabled and use the machine to see if like it.

I can see that. You can also play around with the acceleration time for the motor, as a way of regulating how long it takes to turn on the machine.

I'm wondering if I should bother with the potentiometer to control the frequency? The speeds native to the machine are more than I have ever used. When would I use this feature?

To tell the truth, I have not thought about it. I have a VFD on my lathe and use that to vary the speed somewhat, because it is quicker than swapping the belts (30 seconds). But you are right, the FP2 gearbox is quick and simple. So you might want to leave the VFD fixed at 60 Hz.

The external relay/diode setup schematic that you made might help someone else looking to do something similar. I might even use that setup if I run into control issues in the future. Please post it!

Here it is. The diode can be any sort of small-signal diode, it is just there to dump the inductive spike when the relay is switched off.

I can't say thank you enough. You have saved me hours of head scratching!

I'm happy that it worked out well. Pay it back by helping out someone else here!

Cheers,
Bruce

 

[DennisCA]

Maybe it's not important, but aren't the speeds on the machine designed with a 50hz frequency in mind? So if the motor is running at 60hz, everything will be a little faster than the dials indicate? Or did they compensate for that in models sent to america? Guess they only need to alter one of the drive pulleys slightly to compensate.

My initial idea with this post was maybe one should set the VFD at 50hz for that reason. Though it is not a huge difference even so.